Curse

Relyk · Jul 14, 2012, 03:02 AM // 03:02

This essay is taken directly from my PvXwiki article and therefore have various internal links from it. Please bear with any discomforts this presents for you.

I'm sure anyone who plays the game more than a week knows about PvXwiki. It's a build database for Guildwars that has all those popular builds people use. And it's a wiki. Managed by people. Currently, it's managed by two admins who do all the work making sure the wiki isn't broken, a couple MCs for the PvP section, and a collection of PvE players that contribute intermittently. The wiki used to be more active in the past and generally flows and has flowed in the same direction as Guildwars. Game updates would bring in some new builds, more users were likely contribute, and then it would all die down in a few days. But in the end, what you see is just a collaboration of a small userbase.

There's a generously large rectangular box at the top of each page proclaiming that the build is either ''Good'' or ''Great''. These assignments aren't arbitrary or omniscient. These tags are added based on ratings by users with no obligation to back up their ratings. Quality assurance of ratings is relegated to the Admin noticeboard and admins themselves to moderate the ratings. Being an administrator doesn't necessarily mean the user needs to be experienced with PvE or PvP. The MCs, and formerly Build Masters, were introduced in order to differentiate users who administrated the wiki from those who focused on moderated the builds. The build police can't catch every single suspicious vote though, and if they did, none of the builds would get vetted. In fact, for most builds, the only votes will be from same group of 7-8 people who bother to vote in the first place. If you read through most of the ratings for builds, you'll see most of the builds being rated are ones that have been vetted already. These ratings generally agree with existing consensus. It's call the bandwagon, one or two people sound like they know what they're talking about and others follow just to get the build out of testing. Otherwise, untested builds can go for weeks before receiving five votes. So if you think the build is great because "the entire Guildwars community" says it is, just remember the people who gave it that rating are a few users who know more or less the same amount about the game as you do. The Meta tags for PvP are managed by the MCs, however the meta tags for PvE aren't moderated officially. The two unofficial PvE admins, Life and Athrun, are rather inactive and the PvE section is left up to its own machinations. There is rarely any consensus on what builds are actually PvE meta, although most of the time it's obvious enough that there's no need to contest so. The wiki is not infallible about the current cookie builds and the current meta, sadly.

It requires a different mindset when it comes to how the wiki works. Over the years, the unofficial policy for the wiki developed into the motto: "Only store the best builds on the wiki". This is the ideal that PvXwiki and it's community operates by. This evolved out of necessity as much as a commitment to quality builds. Remember that PvXwiki started out on Guildwiki, vetting was done on the talk page. The move to a wiki dedicated to builds didn't happen until mid-2007. In the first couple years, it was still (wait for it...) fun to create your own build that you found effective and share that knowledge with other people. There was no established cookie cutter builds, the rating system was to be added, and innovation impacted the build. This left the PvP section waterlogged with builds no one was sure anyone actually used. The situation eventually lead to the removal of the Other section and re-balancing of the rating system you see. The general movement towards this ideal contributed to the idea of PvXwiki as a source for cookie cutter builds.

PvXwiki's reputation as an elitist circlejerk and the scourge of all creativity can be reasonably concluded in the eyes of many players who find joy in creating their own unique builds; it's an integral part of Guildwars. Many people even feel threatened by the wiki; I find it particularly amusing that some view the wiki as some all-knowing juggernaut out to consume every last drip of creativity left. It's like we want to know what your build is so we can somehow steal your idea from you. Players want feel like they have an original idea no one else thought of before and are inclined to defend it. I think one of the points people miss is that no one pulled those builds out of their ass. These build are developed by players who play the game, refine the concept, and intentionally or unintentionally share it with others. We see this in PvE with Guildguru topics introducing Sabway, Racway, Spiritway, etc. and word-of-mouth for Imbagon. In PvP, it's the gimmick builds and popular setups in GvG and HA. None of the builds on the wiki are original ideas, they originate from players and are further refined on the wiki. And they continue to be refined, that's the spirit of a wiki and follows the spirit of PvX:OWN. It's the player base as a whole that develops a build rather than any single player.

On a relevant topic, the idea of one build representing multiple variant builds and the WELL tag can be frustrating for people. The concept for general builds is covered on this page. To summarize it, builds have a few core skills to a build and usually revolves around an elite skill or game mechanic. As long as the core concept for the build is kept intact, any other skills used are up to the player. This can be interpreted quite liberally to include almost any build variation possible. If some variation isn't covered, then it's as easy as adding it to the page. So while you do not see your exact build on a build article, be rest assured that core idea for your build is there. If it isn't, you can do yourself and the rest of the community a favor and add it to the build article. That's the purpose of the wiki. It's a relatively simple and fascinating concept in a way. The WELL tag has an insidious reputation and it's the source of most conflicts on the wiki next to the build actually being trashed. People may not or won't understand that their build isn't as unique or effective as they thought. This often happens in Dervish builds where players bring Mystic Regeneration and Armor of Sanctity for "survivability" instead of killing power. At some point, yo have to draw the line between a variant and build. They are two different concepts.

Cuilan · Jul 14, 2012, 12:15 PM // 12:15

tl;dr you're basically advertising a website.

If you want me active on PvX then you need to do something about the troll voting and the people who push for poor skills on purpose.

fireflyry · Jul 14, 2012, 02:15 PM // 14:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

tl;dr you're basically advertising a website.

If you want me active on PvX then you need to do something about the troll voting and the people who push for poor skills on purpose.

Amen.

12char.

Snograt · Jul 14, 2012, 02:45 PM // 14:45

Don't be daft. PvX is such an integral part of the Guild Wars community that it even has a direct link accessible from every page here on Guru.

Relyk is simply trying to put a few misapprehensions to rest, as I see it.

People with their own creativity with builds tend to hate PvX, those of us with lesser talents love the damn thing.

Wielder Of Magic · Jul 14, 2012, 02:53 PM // 14:53

I have read this, but I fail to understand how it brings anything new to the table or takes away the stigma pvx has.

Its basically an explanation of how pvx works and why it works that way, but thats something everyone on guru probably knows already.

So, enlighten me: Whats the added value of this article?

DreamRunner · Jul 14, 2012, 03:03 PM // 15:03

The "essay" isn't structured correctly, doesn't demostrate an proper arguement or even bother to formulate one.

Reformed · Jul 14, 2012, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snograt

Relyk is simply trying to put a few misapprehensions to rest, as I see it.

You resolve them by first acknowledging the most glaring issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Relyk

PvXwiki's reputation as an elitist circlejerk...

...has absolutely nothing at all to do with stifling creativity and everything to do with the people who run and contribute to the site. It has always been this way and if activity there has slumped you have no one to blame but yourselves.

thedukesd · Jul 14, 2012, 04:06 PM // 16:06

The only thing that happened when I decided to leave gwpvx was part of the comunity not having access to several of my builds. The reason I left gwpvx was cause I disagree with the idea to reroll that was promoted by gwpvx at that moment cause well the builds for a class are no much compare to builds for other class(es).

If this is an attempt to get some people back to gwpvx my answer is a big NO.

And btw Relyk your nice gwpvx trashed not so long ago some of my builds and surprise I see some of them considered now great but the funny part is that those builds have been posted relative recently by others not by me. So please explain me how almost over night some builds changed from trash to great when surprise none of the mechanisms used in them changed. I bet that if I would had try to repost them would had been insta trashed again. In those conditions when I believe members of gwpvx made fun of me there is just no way to see me back on gwpvx.

L.E. : Also I don't get for who you want to explain. With the launch of GW 2 the GW community will lower, it's low even now so with a % moving to GW 2 it's clear how it will be.

HigherMinion · Jul 14, 2012, 06:14 PM // 18:14

Here's how much of an elitist circle-jerk it is... I was permabanned for contributing to discussions on improving builds and build pages!

@guy above; I don't know why you can be angry about someone else releasing your build... It means they've learned their mistake, there are more people voting who understand the concept, etc. it's a good thng.

PvX is exactly how democracy works IRL. Corrupt as RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO, which is funny because it's just a game. Problem is, it's such an easy trolling target because it's mostly based on opinion. You can put any spin on a good build and show why it's trash. The AP Ele was trashed, the Rit Lord party-healer was trashed, the Mark of Pain nuker was laughably trashed. Every single paragon build was trashed, discordway was trashed, Shock Axe in PvP was trashed, Hbash/mobeus was trashed, etc. etc. etc.

tl;dr, if there is a low userbase of people who don't even play Guild Wars, there will not be accurate votes. With the current userbase, one dumbphuck and ruin a build's rating. This is why you should contribute.

Premium Unleaded · Jul 14, 2012, 08:26 PM // 20:26

Until it gets credible people moderating or establishes some proper standards with vetting on the pve side (ie. pvp has at least obs mode for baseline), nothing is going to change.
Basic build concepts, when massive overhauls of game mechanics and/or skills occur, and pvp bars are the only areas where it still has credibility because they're the only areas where it's impossible to mess with. The recent AP mopper & ele debacles are the most obvious examples of idiots shitting it up time and again.

MithranArkanere · Jul 14, 2012, 09:32 PM // 21:32

They should implement an actual vote extension, so people that try builds can actually vote for them working.

You know, thumbs up/down stuff, with reset system that clears the thumbs for all builds with a key skill that changes after an update.

Vincent Evan · Jul 14, 2012, 11:26 PM // 23:26

The reasons I find that many people have are ones that are personal and are often coupled with spite or rumored testimony. The whole creative factor can be alive on PvX. Userspace is always abundant and I've always posted my fully thought theorycraft in my sandbox. What many people fail to realize is that PvX is a data base of builds that are viable and used throughout the Guild Wars community as a whole - not just the PvX one, not the Guru one, but ones that are commonly found throughout Guild Wars. There have and will always be people that never realize this. Instead they will post their creative build and when the community (which is actually a good one and one that I have much contact with in real life) calls them out on it being inferior (which it always is), they take it to heart. PvX has always had the worst of luck when it comes to its contributors, and because these people assume the worst in others because they gave criticism to someone's creative build. PvX never had room for creativity in its buildspace, only functionality. Of course, you will always have trolls there who will make it worse for everyone. Minion was PvX's most recent, along with still trying to make socks (puppet accounts) even though they get banned briefly after. But, you really can't get rid of the troll factor anywhere you go on the internet. GWGuru is no way better than PvX in that respect as well. The stigma for PvX will never end because of how paved in the image is of it being website that harbors trolls, flamers, and "big mean jerks who killed creativity." Those who do get by the stigma, such as myself, were often more successful in their Guild Wars knowledge. Creativity is a wonderful thing, but because people tried to push it into its buildspace, the site went down hill.

Relyk · Jul 14, 2012, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wielder Of Magic

I have read this, but I fail to understand how it brings anything new to the table or takes away the stigma pvx has.

Its basically an explanation of how pvx works and why it works that way, but thats something everyone on guru probably knows already.

So, enlighten me: Whats the added value of this article?

There are no major contributors to the wiki from guru except for Minion up until recently. Xenomortis, Minion, Cuilan, and a couple others have made any lasting contributions. I rarely see any discussion about wiki builds beyond using them for reference. The only person from the pvx side that contributed to guru was Karate Jesus. Life contributed to both sites equally, Vincent Evan also contributed to both significantly. I find it hard to believe that anyone that hasn't contributed and participated in discussion has an idea of the mechanisms behind pvxwiki. If people are aware, that's a large majority not making their voice heard on the wiki or even on guru itself. It's not obvious to me why people refuse to contribute to the wiki, they have such strong opinions about what's wrong with the wiki yet they don't do anything about it. I can only surmise they believe it's a waste of time and effort to attempt to do so. In fact, that's what Cuilan says in his post. If I explain how the wiki works, then we can tear down a barrier that shouldn't be there in the first place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Premium Unleaded

Until it gets credible people moderating or establishes some proper standards with vetting on the pve side (ie. pvp has at least obs mode for baseline), nothing is going to change.
Basic build concepts, when massive overhauls of game mechanics and/or skills occur, and pvp bars are the only areas where it still has credibility because they're the only areas where it's impossible to mess with. The recent AP mopper & ele debacles are the most obvious examples of idiots shitting it up time and again.

The wiki has credible people moderating the PvE section, they currently inactive. It also has a policy for vetting. It's in my opinion that PvP players hold builds at higher standards than what players see in obs mode. Obs mode doesn't serve as a baseline, it only supports arguing for or against a build. This fact is obvious because not every build/gimmick seen in obs is vetted and stored ont he wiki. Unfortunately, there are no contributors for high level PvP, and therefore no actual vetting for PvP builds. The AP mop and ele issue are the very reason the wiki needs more people for consensus. The silent majority seems to stand by and let the consensus of a small group of people decide if the builds get trashed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

They should implement an actual vote extension, so people that try builds can actually vote for them working.

You know, thumbs up/down stuff, with reset system that clears the thumbs for all builds with a key skill that changes after an update.

People can already do such with the current system. Giving thumbs up or thumbs down says nothing about the build and doesn't provide any consensus on builds. Implementing such would likely prove insurmountable even if that's what people want. Votes are already wiped for builds that get changed in updates. The wiki has a specific tag for such. Admins will normally wipe a build (remove all current votes) or archive it depending on the significance of those changes.

*lemming* · Jul 15, 2012, 02:05 AM // 02:05

yeah RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOin elitist scumbags omg

Snograt · Jul 15, 2012, 03:13 AM // 03:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Relyk

There are no major contributors to the wiki from guru except for Minion up until recently.

I was going to say "what about Auron?" - then I read his talk page(s).

Auron rules.

Occasionally.

DiogoSilva · Jul 15, 2012, 03:46 AM // 03:46

I have a few issues with PvX, even though I usually post my stuff there. Several of my suggestions have been trashed, but I'm not mad at it.

I do feel, however, that sometimes opinions (votes) value too much theorycrafting over practise. I've built myself several RA builds that lead me to 25 wins at least once (and generally net me good results), but I would probably not bother posting them there after my Mind Burn build got trashed due to "energy problems" I never had.

Relyk · Jul 15, 2012, 04:46 AM // 04:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiogoSilva

I have a few issues with PvX, even though I usually post my stuff there. Several of my suggestions have been trashed, but I'm not mad at it.

I do feel, however, that sometimes opinions (votes) value too much theorycrafting over practise. I've built myself several RA builds that lead me to 25 wins at least once (and generally net me good results), but I would probably not bother posting them there after my Mind Burn build got trashed due to "energy problems" I never had.

There's not much you can do about theorycrafting in PvP, especially when it comes to RA. The issue of "My build got 25 wins in RA" doesn't just pertain to vetting on pvx. The way it's setup now, you have to be committed toward pushing it as a good or great build. I personally had energy problems with Mind Burn spamming it too often but seen it used fairly often in formats, so I understand why there was merit to posting it. I don't think there was enough discussion and whether improving the build was possible or not. Nothing was brought up on the AN about it either. That's more of an exception rather than the rule as Mind Burn was recently updated.

mrmango · Jul 15, 2012, 08:04 AM // 08:04

Good old Auron.

Xenomortis · Jul 15, 2012, 11:06 AM // 11:06

PvX has a one dimensional, 2 point scale for rating builds with a small and conflicting population. These factors scupper any potential you think PvX has.
It's pretty shit.

Fay Vert · Jul 15, 2012, 11:21 AM // 11:21

PvX is a great resource, but I find it really annoyinbg how some great builds (that actually work) are slated while some truely dreadful builds (some that don,t even work) are highly rated. I can only assume that these ratings are decided by opinion and not by usage.

So PvX s a great resource, some good builds and a good place for ideas, but most of the builds there can be improved on with a little thought.

I think the problem for me is that I have a perception that it's run by a bunch of self-appointed, opinionated people and anyone else is barely tollerated at best. Of course, I could be wrong, that is just a perception I have. Maybe they could work more on the perception if that is not the reality. e.g. why do I think of "them" when a wiki should be "us"?